I\'m Summer, a mouthy, sarcastic bitch. I\'m passionate about natural birth, long term breastfeeding, and living naturally. I curse too much, love tattoos, and will some day be crushed to death by my book collection. I homeschool, dream of gardening, and swing to the left. 
Parenting, Analogies, And Insults With @phdinparenting
A few years ago I was a co-moderator on a brand new forum that had opened. I helped moderate the breastfeeding section of the parenting board, and it was nasty. Maybe because it was a brand new forum, maybe because the site it was linked with tended to draw younger people, or maybe because the site itself was private leaving people with a little more bravery…
Whatever the reason, it was nasty. Within a few days of opening the breastfeeding section was flooded with posts and comments, all from people who felt that just by having a breastfeeding forum we were insulting their parenting and attacking them personally. Just starting a “Hey, tell us who you are and how long you’ve been breastfeeding!” conversation brought a few dozen replies that we were attacking any mom who breastfed for less than (insert personal idea of what is too long here).
I didn’t last long, very soon I stepped down from the moderator position. And not long after i quit the forum and left the entire site completely. It felt like if I even so much as said I preferred blue I would be flamed to hell and back by the people who preferred pink/green/yellow/purple and accused of hating on them just for daring to state my preference. Clearly I should never go into politics, I just can’t say “I think this is best, but you’re totally right and what you’re doing is so much better than me and I’m so sorry for breathing in any way that might offend you”.
One particular conversation, in fact the one that ended my time as moderator, still rings in my head. There was a rash of “I formula fed all 12 of my kids and now they’re all Nobel Peace Prize winning doctors whoa re about to cure cancer so how dare you say breastfeeding is anything better than terrible!” comments. After a while I got annoyed, and eventually stopped caring about being nice. I popped off with a remark about how my grandfather smoked a pack a day everyday for 70 years and died in great health. Now, my point was that there is an exception to every rule. The rule says if you smoke you should get cancer, but I’m sure we all know someone who smokes and is in good health. The rule says if you eat fast food you should be overweight, but we all know a burger loving skinny person or a veggie loving fat person. The rule says if you parent your kids right they’ll be fine, but we all know the messed up person who had wonderful parents.
We’re humans, sometimes we just don’t follow the expected pattern of life. That was my point.
What followed was an explosion of comments from people insulted out of their minds that I had compared formula feeding to smoking, that I had said formula was the same as smoking, that I was saying mothers who use formula are blowing smoke in their babies faces. And yes, there were even a couple “I smoked while pregnant and my baby is FINE!” comments. Which, actually kind of proved my point. If humans weren’t resilient bastards there wouldn’t be TV shows about people falling out of airplanes and living to talk about it. Some without a single broken bone.
OK, so the point of this long story is this: sometimes you try to make a point by using an analogy. I wasn’t comparing smoking to formula, I was saying just because some studies say X is good or bad we’re always going to know people who did the opposite and are perfect. But to someone already in the mindset to be insulted, to someone expecting to read something insulting, or frankly to someone who already hates you the little thing can blow up.
That seems to be what happened over the weekend at PhD in Parenting. The teacher took an interesting analogy about Sex and Sleep just a few steps farther, and hell broke lose in the comment section. Her point, as far as what I got, was that forcing your will on another person is wrong. Whether that person is a woman or a baby, it’s wrong. And just because some groups advocate it, it’s still wrong.
And I love that idea, I adore that idea, I said something similar on my own blog not to long ago!
But many choose it because we see it as respecting our child’s humanity. Treating my child in the same manner I would expect to be treated by others. Letting them know that they deserve to be treated like civilized human beings, and showing them how I expect them to treat others. I could easily yell at, spank, and send Evan to the corner for an infraction. But treating him with violence and shame only increases the odds that he will mirror those things as an adult.
For me, treating my kids the way I want them to act as adults is both feminist and AP. It rings true to me, if I want them to be adults who are respectful of others then I need to teach them how by being respectful of them. So I got it when she wrote
If someone is obsessed with sex, it is appropriate for them to use gentle, loving, techniques to try to convince a partner to have sex. It is not appropriate to use force to get someone to have sex with you. It is also not particularly respectful to complain and push, complain and push, complain and push with intermittent reminders that you love the person until that person finally gives in. Same with sleep. If someone is obsessed with sleep, it is appropriate to use gentle, loving techniques to try to get your baby to sleep so that you can get more sleep too. It is not appropriate to force a baby to sleep using methods like the extinction method of cry it out. It also isn’t particularly respectful to say you have to sleep now and I’m going to let you cry for a bit, remind you that I love you, let you cry for a bit more, remind you that I love you, and then let you cry some more again until you finally go to sleep (otherwise known as graduated extinction).
See, if it’s wrong to do that to your partner to try to get sex then maybe it’s wrong to use the same methods to get your baby to sleep. And because we’re civilized people here, we can figure out that if it’s disrespectful to force your will on one person then it’s also disrespectful to force your will on another person. Whatever the age of that person or what your will might be, it’s wrong because its wrong. End stop.
But what some of her commenters saw was “RAPE!”
Or, more specifically “OMG IF YOU DON’T PARENT EXACTLY LIKE ME YOU’RE RAPING YOUR BABY!”
Which, is a bit of a WTF leap of ideas to me. But I couldn’t help notice that the people the most insulted seemed, at least by their comments, to already not like her. Things like “leave it to you” and a lot of putting words in her mouth (like she never once mentioned co-sleeping yet was accused of claiming it was the only way). It’s almost as if they went there expecting to be insulted, and like a self-fulfilling prophecy they rightly were.
Its all about Perspective. If you walk into a room expecting to be offended or insulted, chances are you will be.
Now, yes I know all about intention verses perception. In fact I praised Letterman for stating in his apology that his intention of the joke didn’t matter compared to how it was perceived. But I also think at one point we have to look at ourselves and where we are coming from. Do you think if Limbaugh had make the same joke would Palin have been half as upset about it as she did because Letterman said it? It wouldn’t have made the joke better or worse, but her own perception would have been different.
Like the difference between your best friend telling you that your butt looks huge or a total stranger saying it. They may both have the same intentions, but you’re going to perceive it differently.
One angry commenter quipped
Rape is nothing to use as a light analogy. I’m actually glad for you that you don’t know how serious it is. May no one you love ever have to join the ranks of the 1 in 3 college women and 1 in 4 American women overall who do know the horrors of this crime.
Well I am one of those women, and I still didn’t perceive the post as accusing mothers of raping their children. In fact, as a rape survivor I’m more insulted by all the “OMG You’re accusing us of rape” comments. Those comments trivialized my experiences far more than her observation that imposing one’s will, no matter what that will may be, is wrong. But you see, that’s my perception. That’s where I’m coming from.
If you want her head on a silver platter along with an apology, then I’d like your apology as well. For insulting and trivializing my experiences in order to make snarky comments on the internet. For using it as a shield to hide behind the real ideas in the post. For assuming that experience in no way flavors how I parent and my views of respect and gentle guidance.
You know what causes most mommy wars? People being too fucking defensive about their own methods. I could have practically written this verbatim and applied it to nearly every message board I’ve been on regarding any number of parenting topics.
I have said it before, I’ll say it again, and I’ll KEEP saying it till people quit their goddamn whining: if you are confident that what you are doing is the right choice, you don’t need to fly off into a rage if someone questions it. Why defend what you’re doing if you know it’s the right thing to do? Every day what I do for my kids comes under fire. I just smile and move on. I know I am doing what’s best for them. What anybody else thinks REALLY DOESN’T MATTER. I am not in this parenting thing in order to get pats on the back and lots of popularity. I am in it to create good, honest, awesome little people. That’s all!
Jill\´s last blog post..First!
What else do you call “forced sex” than RAPE? I fear you can’t see the forest for the trees here. Comparing forced sex to sleep training is nothing short of disgusting. I’m guessing you’re not a rape survivor or you’d know better.
Those of us who HAVE survived sex abuse do NOT appreciate someone comparing our parenting style to forced sex. You’re both free to go ahead and do it, but if you expect to get your message out, you’re going about it in a really crappy way. No mother, especially a sex abuse survivor, is going to sit and listen to you compare a violent crime to the way they parent. Good luck earning readers that way!
And if you can’t advocate for breastfeeding or natural birth without calling other parents “disrespectful” or comparing it to “forced sex” then you definitely should not be moderating any type of breastfeeding forum. Now I understand why so many women on the fence go straight for the Similac instead of listening to this type of nonsense.
TheFeministBreeder\´s last blog post..A Message to my Boys about Michael Jackson
Summer Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:28 am
But she did not compare rape to sleep training. I think you’re too stuck on wanting it to be that you can’t read what she said, or what I said. She made the comparison that forcing your will on another human being is disrespectful, and she used an example that I would assume we can all agree with is an example of forcing one’s will. It’s like when an advocate for not circumcizing boys says if it’s wrong to do it to girls then it’s wrong to do it to boys and suddenly everyone jumps in screaming “But it’s worse on girls, how dare you compare, you’re wrong!” No one was comparing it, no one was saying it was the same, you just want to be insulted so desperately. Step back, breath, and come back without the assumption that shes trying to insult you. You might read her words differently.
“But I couldn’t help notice that the people the most insulted seemed, at least by their comments, to already not like her.”
This was the second blog I’d ever read by PhD, the first being about the Hannah Rosin BFing controversy. I had no suppositions about her writing when I read the “Sex and Sleep” blog. Nor did my natural parenting friends who thought she was being “dense and insensitive” by using rape in such a flippant manner.
I was the “Cate” who commented and that’s my clip that you used up there.
I’m also a rape survivor, and I am not trivializing your experience or mine.
I am sensitive to using rape in an analogy, and you and I obviously feel different about our experiences and how the term is thrown around. (I compare it to the whole “Breastfeeding Nazis” controversy.) Though I don’t think she said I was raping my children, because I don’t practice that kind of parenting.
I also don’t believe in CIO, but I think that it is careless to compare it to rape. She said in our Twitter convo that “I’d happily debate whether CIO is disrespectful.” She may not agree with CIO. I don’t, either. But as I tweeted to her, “Rape is not a ‘diss’.” It is much more serious than simple disrespect.
I stand by my comments here and there. I and other rape survivors called her on using it so lightly because we don’t take it lightly. It’s an illogical analogy.
Cate\´s last blog post..Math is for Everyone: Resources for Quick and Easy Family-Centered Math Activities
Great post Summer. Forcing your will upon another is wrong- irregardless of what your will is or who you’re forcing it upon. It’s a pretty simple concept & the analogy makes perfect sense.
I’ll parent the way I want to parent *shrug*. If somebody doesn’t like, well then, fuck off
is my attitude.
I’ve been one of those mums. The ones who watched what they ate, and whom didn’t believe that once the baby was out that magically she was able to care for herself. I’ve always been a hands on mum, with breastfeeding, co-sleeping, slings, and lots of hugs, cuddles and kisses. As a result, I feel my kids are very happy well adjusted little girls now. Not afraid to head off and explore. I’m happy with the way I’ve done the thankless (at times) job of mothering.
Sounds like some ladies have a bug up their arse. Annoying to put up with, to say the least. Sorry about your trials and tribulations.
Thank you Summer.
I have also gotten in trouble for using the smoking/formula analogy before. I think there is obviously something missing in high school English classes these days if people are not learning the difference between a comparison and an analogy.
Annie @ PhD in Parenting\´s last blog post..Let’s try another analogy
Love your thoughtful posts- thank you for trying to raise the level of discourse- alas we will continue to butt heads for reasons I cant fathom. We are all too busy to be fighting each other.
I didn’t read her post and I’m not likely to…(time issues really…nothing against her, she’s just not on my blogroll. *shrugs*) but based on what you’ve said here…I totally get it. I see it more as a “I’m forcing you through wearing you down” such as…if we as parents say “I won’t give into my child if it’s not in their best interest” and then your child proceeds to follow you around the house begging for ‘X’ with a barage of “please! Please mom! Please. Please can I have it!? Please! MOM!! Please!?” You very well may give into that. As you may give into ANYTHING and ANYONE on any topic…you may disagree with what your doing but you’ve been worn down. That’s how I see CIO…wearing your child down until they finally stop asking. (via crying…that is to say.) I’m not sure if I’m just mudding the water more…but I don’t see rape here. I see a comparison between two experiences that both equal wearing another soul down to something they dont’ want to do…or as you say, forcing your will on another soul.
As a little side note…I still mourn that you left that other site. Obviously I read you here but since you dont’ come around there you don’t read me and I miss our back and forths….just sayin.
Right on. (And also, wheee I got a link!)
I am, and have been for almost three years now, a moderator on a parenting forum, and I’ve learned to watch the analogies I use for just the reason Annie ran into — using certain analogies just shuts the conversation down for a lot of people. It’s not that the analogies are bad or wrong or invalid (I thought Annie’s was well done), just that some topics are too volatile to be used if I want to actually be heard.
I’ve also, and this is one of the reasons I am so grratful for having had this experience, learned to look past my initial shocked or pissed off reaction to try to see what a person is actually saying. That is, I’ve learned to (or rather, am still learning to!) avoid taking offense at offensive analogies, as well as to try to avoid giving it. And yes, through both experience and observation I’ve learned that just as there are ways to get one’s point across offensively or (relatively) inoffensively, there are ways to communicate that one is offended politely, in a way likely to effect change, or impolitely, in a way likely to shut down communication even further.
Arwyn\´s last blog post..Two things I do believe and several things I don’t
This is the quote that made me think of rape:
“There are countries where it is appropriate, accepted, and normal for a husband to force his wife to have sex. They would call it normal, a wife’s duty.”
If that doesn’t mean rape, then what does it mean? As a rape victim, I’m sensitive to the word, just as survivors of the Holocaust are offended by flippant use of the word “Nazi.” I once stormed out of an ex-boyfriend’s apartment because he scarfed down a sandwich then pronounced that he had “raped” it. He didn’t know my history, but I was offended by such casual use of something that is violent and horrific.
I understood the point Annie was trying to make, but she could have used a less volatile analogy.
**Not leaving my real name, because most of my family don’t know that I was raped.**
@Still Offended:
I’m sorry you have been a rape victim. That is awful. I was referencing rape in my analogy, but that doesn’t mean that I was dismissing or trivializing it.
I was trying to use something people do unfortunately understand to illustrate something that people unfortunately do not understand, by using an ANALOGY. Not a direct comparison.
God is to Heaven as the Devil is to Hell.
That is an analogy. It doesn’t mean that I am saying God is the Devil.
Annie @ PhD in Parenting\´s last blog post..Let’s try another analogy
What makes you think that people don’t understand the difference between CIO and using other methods? Why is it that you think that people resort to CIO or other non-gentle methods because they simply don’t know better. What would you say if I told you that I consulted numerous books on sleep, including AP sources or the Pantley books, and still opted for CIO? What would you say if I said that I read all the literature on breastfeeding and still decided that I would use formula? I’m not a stupid woman, I’m capable of looking at all the info and making the decision that is right for MY family.
So what you are saying is that disrespecting your wife by raping her is analagous to disrespecting your child by forcing her to CIO. I can unequivocobly say that what was done to me was more than “disrespect.” And THAT is where your analogy falls short.
“There are countries where it is appropriate, accepted, and normal for a husband to force his wife to have sex. They would call it normal, a wife’s duty.”
When I read this it makes me think of the countries where it is customary to force women and girls into arranged marriages against their will and where women are treated like property and/or cannot show their bodies and face. It did not make me think of rape.
I think it is a good analogy. Harsh, but obviously very effective.
I have had a run in with FB myself awhile back and she blew up in a similar way over something that was not even written in an article. She was unable to digest or ponder any of the info being shared because she was being personally assaulted in some bizarre kind of way. Therefore I think she is looking to get pissed off and is probably just pissed off in general at her life’s circumstances. When you say,
“But to someone already in the mindset to be insulted, to someone expecting to read something insulting, or frankly to someone who already hates you the little thing can blow up.”
I think you are absolutely right and it would be hard to communicate to someone like this in general.
@PhD
The analogy was poorly done, period. If you had to explain it, you used the literary device wrong. And you had to explain it A LOT! I liked Natural Mom Loves Prada’s whole take on your writing in general and that post in particular.
Here’s my answer, ladies:
http://blog.thenatureschild.com/2009/06/lets-talk-about-natural-parenting.html
Cate\´s last blog post..Analogies, Attachment, and Rape
Summer Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Cate, I disagree. I don’t think she had to explain it a lot because it was poorly done, I think she had to explain it a lot because some people tuned out and refused to take it as anything other than what they wanted it to be.
@Summer
You obviously didn’t read the original post. PhD changed it twice from what I saw. (Not sure how many times total). I also commented on that in my post on the topic. I’m done discussing it here. I thoroughly laid out my argument against using that analogy in my blog and how poorly it was done.
Cate\´s last blog post..Analogies, Attachment, and Rape
Summer Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Unfortunately I can’t read your post Cate. I’ve tried several times today but only get a “Firefox can’t find the server at blog.thenatureschild.com.” error Since I can get everywhere else online I’m guessing I’m blocked. Oh well, the conversation ends here I guess.
@ Still Offended:
You asked: “What would you say if I told you that I consulted numerous books on sleep, including AP sources or the Pantley books, and still opted for CIO? What would you say if I said that I read all the literature on breastfeeding and still decided that I would use formula?”
I would wonder why, but that is really none of my business. Beyond that, I would accept that people are human and not everyone can or does make the best choice all of the time. I eat junk food sometimes, perhaps even too much. I know it isn’t as good as healthy food. But I don’t get offended if someone puts up a post that says that junk food is bad for your body and that healthy food is better. I know that to be true.
Annie @ PhD in Parenting\´s last blog post..Let’s try another analogy
I totally see the connection. Forcing your will on another human being is wrong.
I have always believed that modern day parents objectify their little ones until they can either walk or talk. I have never understood.
I see people calling their babies “the baby” instead of by name the same way some men call their wife “the old lady” or “the ball and chain”.
Objectification, failure to empathize, not practicing the golden rule, forcing our will on others….that is what we are talking about here. I totally see it.
Thank you for this post Summer. It is beautiful.
Sheryl\´s last blog post..Things I read/twittered or talked about this week
@Summer: I’m not the owner of the Nature’s Child site, so I’m not sure why you can’t get to the site, but I’ll pass on your problem to her.
@All: “Rape” is as poor an analogy as “Nazi” is referring to lactivists. My reaction may very well be different from yours; we are different people. Survivors often have unique experiences and reactions.
Also, I do want to point out that most of you did not read Annie’s original post, which said (instead of CIO) “force a baby to sleep alone.” She changed it.
I read it after I went on Twitter Saturday morning and saw an argument between her and FB. I was like, “What IS this that they’re arguing about?” then went to PhD’s Twitter profile and clicked on her last link there. I read the initial post, and it has changed two times (by my count, though it may be more) since I first saw it. You assumed what my frame of mind was when I read the post, Summer, and you were wrong. Try curiosity.
Though we cosleep, our boys go to bed by themselves, peacefully. I don’t “force” anything, but they are in their beds alone at their set bedtimes after we finish up the nightly routine.
Just because my reaction to the flippant use of rape imagery is different from that of others doesn’t make it wrong. I am a different rape survivor than some of you may be, that’s all.
But tell me, if you reject lactivists being characterized as “Nazis” though they are both passionate, why do you accept a parenting technique –THAT NONE OF US AGREE WITH– being characterized as “forced sex”? It’s a poor analogy, plain and simple.
And I not only had a good grasp on that “in my high school English classes”, I aced all of my college linguistic and grammar classes when I was getting my BA.
(For example: “irregardless” is not a word.)
If you want to hear my full argument against using rape imagery in this way, please see my blog post on the matter, or check out this interesting post at Salon.com:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2009/04/30/rape_me/
Note: the author also corrects her post properly at the bottom of the page without going back to change the initial post. I appreciate that.
Cate\´s last blog post..Analogies, Attachment, and Rape
@Cate: As I explained in the comments on your post, I did change it. I initially said “force your child to sleep alone” thinking that the only way you can force your child to sleep alone is with CIO. People misunderstood, so I clarified to be more direct with my wording. The other edit I made was to remove the word “rape” without changing the meaning of what I was saying. Someone asked for that as a courtesy and I was happy to oblige because it didn’t change the meaning of what I was saying.
I do object to the term Breastfeeding Nazi and I think you would be right to object to the term CIO Rapist. But that isn’t what I said.
Annie @ PhD in Parenting\´s last blog post..Cooling Off
I think I see Summer’s point. I am not a victim of rape, but I have felt fury, in my childhood and occasionally later, at being FORCED. At being treated like a little dumb machine without feelings or options. My mother pays for that. As an adult, I forgive her, but still, I don’t feel much for her. I think she grieves over that, but doesn’t know what to do about it. She feels she was right, and that’s that.
My wife and I have raised our son to believe that he deserves the integrity and dignity of his sovereign life. We’ve taught him he can ask for our attention and expect to get it. Now he’s at an age where he rarely wants our attention, and that suits me. But someday when he’s in trouble, I believe he will come to us, no matter what it is, and let us help him.
We haven’t always upheld the highest standard. We’ve both lost our temper at times. But we worked at it and practiced and I suspect he’ll forgive our lapses in the end.
I just don’t buy the theory that we must separate ourselves from our children for their own good. Or force them to do things (apart from specific health, safety, or perhaps some legal matters). You may want to do such things, as a parent for *your* good.
For those of you who think rape is an inappropriate analogy. Well, it’s a strong image, and maybe too strong for the room, but it is more apt than some of you think. See, from rapist’s point of view, he doesn’t see that what he’s doing is so bad. He may think it’s natural (just look how nature works!). He may wonder why his victim is so upset. “What’s the big deal? Why can’t she get over it? No damage was done!” Rape is not against any natural, physical law, it’s against other kinds of law (which are of course, very important). Rape is, among other things, a **profound** violation of empathy.
Rape is a bad. I’m not saying that it isn’t. I’m saying that it’s easy for an aggressor to decide that the victim is “okay with it.” I tried to keep that in mind when I dealt with my young son.
I wanted to have my son circumcised, at first, but when it came down to having it done, my empathy kicked in. How could I cause such needless pain to him? What compelling reason was there for that?
I have to side with those saying “bad analogy”, but not just because I think rape is too extreme a comparison (I do). Even if you disregard the magnitude of actions, they are not analogous. Unless you’re giving drugs or some other means of making the child unconscious, you’re not forcing sleep. A disrespectful or unkind method (and not, IMO, a good way), perhaps, but not force.
And on the subject of force, I find the idea that it is always wrong to impose your will on your child… amusing. Perhaps you have not considered what this actually means. You impose your will on your kids many times a day, either passively (keeping them out of the cabinet with a child lock) or actively. Presumably, you have rules for your child(ren). That’s your will. Whether it is well-reasoned and based on the best research about what’s best for them, or more arbitrary, how else would you describe it besides “your will”?
Anyway, I’ve just skimmed these blogs (yours and PhdInParenting), but it looks like generally good stuff.
Regards